bmundy

Topic: Plaforization

Has anyone heard of or is currently using Plaforization for pretreatment? I'm looking for some opinions. preferably from someone who is or has used this process before (pros -vs- cons).

Would appreciate any insight.

Thanks, Brian

dpatterson

Re: Plaforization

I will start out by admitting I sell pretreatment chemistry but not this process. I waited to see if anyone would post on this before I responded.  I do have a friend who has been using this technology for several years and likes the technology. I have ask him to answer your post but in case he does not, this is what he told me.

They manufacture products for the military and are a captive house, which means they control the soil load entering the process. He thought his bombs were clean but discovered they have to clean each bomb with a solvent based cleaner with a mop before entering the process. They did not do this at first and fouled the bath and had to dump and recharge about a month after first starting up.

He also dumps half of his bath every year and replenishes with fresh material. He then uses the dumped material during the year to replenish the bath, any excess is disposed of at the end of the year.

His goal was to replace the zinc phosphate system with this material but he has to run both processes because he can not run enough material through the line. This could be because they sized the line to small or because the hand cleaning of the parts has slowed down the process, honestly I do not know which.

He is able to pass the salt spray tests for his parts. I do also know of a company on the East Coast who ran aluminum and had a lot of salt spray problems. They had field failures like crazy.

The technology has been around for a long time and it is a viable technology but like any it has issues. If you are a job shop that requires extended salt spray or manufacture a product with outside exposure I would look at other technologies. If you can take some parts to a company in your area using the process, I would recommend you do that, then paint and perform quality testing.

Another source is to ask the paint vendors you deal with for their opinion. Since they do not sell the technology they will not be biased.

Honestly, a huge part of your success with any new process is selecting the correct vendor. You will need to be able to depend on them to be there when you need them as well as be able to trust this person to be honest with you. Check out the vendor as well but do remember that we are not perfect.

I hope this information has helped you out.

Diane Patterson
ABrite Company

Travis Stirewalt

Re: Plaforization

I have heard of NO success stories of this chemistry when it comes to exterior rated powder coating projects. That is enough to keep me at arms length.

Salt Spray testing in an exterior environment should reach minimums of 1000-1100 hrs and I have not heard of a plaforization system that has done this with any of my customers that have tried it.

Im sure it has its place with specific jobs though. I just dont have a positive history with this technology. Can anyone provide a bit more of the positives to this system other than energy savings?

Travis Stirewalt, CSI, NASF
Senior Sales Manager, Eastern US
TIGER Drylac USA Powder Coatings
www.tiger-coatings.com

Paul Fisher

Re: Plaforization

Hold on here- guys and gals…..I have personally seen several successful installations for the Plaforization process. I have seen the lab, met the inventor, know happy customers, and know the distributors in the US, who I also consider friends. So if they aren’t going to weigh in here, I will.


As I said - I have had the privilege of touring several facilities around Italy, some of which have been using this product successfully for decades, and have heard (yes in English) testaments to its capabilities from end users - first hand. Let us not forget how powerful a personal testament can be from an end user…. especially when you are standing right there on their floor where the technology is being used. I also heard dozens more success stories directly from end users themselves as a guest at the French SITS EXPO …..Oh yea – and speaking of end users I’d love to see the facility in Texas weigh in on their satisfaction level with this pretreatment technology.

This product does work “in the proper application”, “with proper application”…. That is “Used for the right thing in the right way” for all ya’ll out there in Tennessee land.

First don’t forget its more obvious benefits like being a single step process (smaller footprint) that if used in the right instances can save time not to mention disposal costs and analytical time.

Then you also have to consider other unique benefits it has to offer as well…. like it can be an absolute blessing to someone who doesn’t have access to water, sewer, or treatment abilities. Heck it could even be a deal maker/breaker in a situation where there was no water, but was work for powder coating. Remember in most of the rest of the world (and one day soon in the US) water is an incredibly precious commodity.

Then there is the whole thermal energy savings thing from not having to heat and maintain temp in your pre-treat solutions? Have you seen the power bills of some of these powder shops out there…? Sometimes the monthly is more than I paid for my house….in total. Any energy conservation can be a good thing when you think about it in this light, with those kinds of figures….and this problem is only getting worse in the US.

And lastly don’t forget…just like every chemical distributor I’ve ever met, all distributors have several variations that make up a product line. If I’m not mistaken there is a new Plaforization product being trialed on the market right now that is set to achieve an acceptable outdoor SS spec…. and I for one look forward to hearing more about it. In fact I hope to see it working first hand on my next trip to Europe.

In the end I just want to leave anyone reading this with two points to remember – 1.) in my view, the Europeans are about 10 years ahead of the US in Surface Finishing,- and 2.) make sure that all factors are considered when you choose your pretreatment method. It really does matter.

Matt B

Re: Plaforization

Hey Brian, I'm the guy "dpatterson" is speaking of. We have been using Plaforization "Plaf" for the past six years or so.

As Diane mentioned, initially we had a problem with excess oil & dirt on out product that we hadn't planed for. FYI we grit blast the ID & OD then machine our product. So we have a high concentration of blast dust, media & oil on our un-clean product to the extent that some of the media becomes embedded in the surface of our product causing problems at our zinc phosphate line (another story).

Back to plaf....We did dump our bath one time after we had over saturated the bath with oil. We will only change the bath if required and we will then reuse the material after filtering or you can have it distilled and is then useful as new fluid. This fluid can then be used to top off your tank during regular processing. We have changed the bath only twice in 6 years. We have a salt spray requirement that we meet and havent had a failure in ~5 years. The failure we had was due to contaminated test panels and not a Plaf failure.

We do run an 8 stage zinc phos line as we still have requirements for the zinc phosphate. As you know plaf is a cold process and energy savings are substantial. Overall I'm pleased with plaf and as always, I suggest that you test the application for yourself. The product will coat product that is oiled but will not remove heavy oils, grease and corrosion....to an extent neither will my zinc phosphate system....and Plaf is not marketed to do such. 

Point is each process has is parameters...as long as you stay inside the parameters you will have success with either process.

Let me hear from you botterm@gar.gd-ots.com

Matt

Travis Stirewalt

Re: Plaforization

Matt,

Thank you very much for your insight and shared experience with plaf.

Travis

Travis Stirewalt, CSI, NASF
Senior Sales Manager, Eastern US
TIGER Drylac USA Powder Coatings
www.tiger-coatings.com

bmundy

Re: Plaforization

Thanks for everyones insight on this matter. Here is a little info on our current process. We have a 5 stage pretreatment currently with an alkaline cleaner in the 1st stage and phosphate in the 3rd. those two tanks are of course heated, the remainder are rinse. We powder coat hot rolled and cold rolled steel, aluminum & cast aluminum. I've run some samples using the B700 solution (dipped) and the adhesion seems pretty good. I guess my biggest concerns are:

Will there be any additional blowing off needed due to this solution being thicker than water? From what I seen on the samples we ran it tends to hang on the parts a little more than water.

And will the flow coat rather than our current pressure spray,wash away all the dirt, dried (tacky) oil, etc..left on the parts from the steel mill & in house processes?

Thanks,

Brian

Carpenter Chemicals

Re: Plaforization

Hi Brian, My name is Mary Carpenter, from Carpenter Chemicals, which supplies the Plaforization and the new Toran pretreatments. I have been following your posts and thought I might offer answers to your last questions.

As to blow-off, the best thing is to allow sufficient time for drip-off so that there is only a little dripping going on and then blow off the last bit. Doing it too early will blow it around some, and may waste some material. It is somewhat thicker than water.

As to the cleaning action, the solvents are designed to help with the washing to get the fines and oils off. If you have fairly stuck-on material such as deburring debris, you may need a little extra time and/or you may want the pressure up closer to the 5 PSI. Generally, the only real problems we see are things like baked-on, old oils.

We could always test a part for you, although you say you have already tested some B700. Anyway, if you want to, you could give me a call at 703-683-1570. I promise - no pressure. Just information.

-Mary Carpenter

hhemphill

Re: Plaforization

bmundy wrote:

Has anyone heard of or is currently using Plaforization for pretreatment? I'm looking for some opinions. preferably from someone who is or has used this process before (pros -vs- cons).

Would appreciate any insight.

Thanks, Brian

Hello Brian, I am with Infratrol Mfg. Corp. and we have a completely operational powder coating system which uses the Plaforization process, in our facility here in New Berlin WI. We have found this process to be very effective. You are welcome to use our system to determine if this process meets your pretreatment requirements. Please feel free to visit our website at www.infratrol.com to view a short video of this system under Features Products, EcoFlex Powder Coating System.

Thanks, Hank Hemphill, Infratrol Mfg. Corp.

Single Stage

Re: Plaforization

Our company has designed, manufactured, installed and commissioned the majority of the single stage washing systems across North America, including the largest two ever manufactured (Knoll Inc. in PA). We have a patent pending on the single stage washer design as well. Each of our customers from Knoll to Mestek and Emerson has nothing but great things to say about the process. We are also in the process of working with other industry leaders on the implementation of the process into their production system.

The key is to not believe what you hear from skeptics but to actually spend a few minutes and contact users. Find out the benefits, see their facility in operation, run some parts, have the chemical supplier perform all testing requirements and see the results yourself. Never ask a sales representative working at a Toyota dealership what they think about Honda products.

Our company is also in the process of working with three of our existing single stage customers on supplying additional single stage washers in some of their other facilities.

Long story short it works and will save your company money. If you shoot me a note I can send you contact information for our customer base so you can find out about their experience from testing through to equipment.


Brian Robey

Re: Plaforization

Hi ....we manufacture lighting fittings (fixtures) in th UK many of which are used in exterior locations. We are proposing to install a Plaforization plant for pretreatment of zinc coated steel and aluminium prior to polyester powder coating.Tests would indicate that the process will pass the1000 hour salt spray test but it would be good to hear any feedback from anyone who has used the process for this type of application where product isused /installed outside in all weathers.

Opinions on this forum seem to differ as to the suitability ?

Carpenter Chemicals

Re: Plaforization

Hi Brian,

We are the NAFTA distributor for the Plaforization and Toran products on behalf of Chemtec, and have been doing this for 12 years now. Rather than posting customer details here, I would be happy to talk with you and give you references, or have them call or e-mail you, your choice. Please e-mail me at mary@cc-lc.com or call +1-703-683-1570 at your convenience. We have customers getting up to 5,000 hours of salt spray, others in the 1,000 to 2,000 range – all depending on the substrate, which Plaforization/Toran product they use, and what topcoat and thickness. Polyester powders in this part of the world contain TGIC, and that positively affects salt spray; however, one of our customers has obtained 2,000 hours on steel using a hybrid coating and using the Toran 3 as the pretreatment.

I hope this gives you some information. Please allow me to assist you further with more details.

Mary

Brian Robey

Re: Plaforization

Thanks Mary...very helpful...I will e-mail you and perhaps you would be kind enough to ask some of your contacts to let me have their comments on the product Toran 3 used for applications with polyester (perhaps TIG free) on steel (zinc coated) and aluminium (LM6 grade) end products for outdoor exposure.

cheers Brian